Which would you choose?

General discussion of subjects beyond the scope of the other forums.

Postby The $ Avenger » Thu Sep 20, '07, 12:56 am

Star Trek, because from what I've seen, ST portrays a more realistic future, while Star Wars accepts a mystic base, "The Force" etc. I've completely changed my view on SW, which I loved when I was younger.

Thoul wrote:Trek covers a wider range of material, so it has a little something for everyone and, for the most part, is a much more upbeat story. Star Wars is, at times, very depressing because a large part of it is the story of a man's fall from grace through selfishness.
I complete agree about the difference in portrayal of worlds, with ST being optimistic, vs. SW pessimism, but completely disagree about SW's reasons for being depressive. SW is the opposite of selfishness; it's the story of man's fall from grace through selflessness.

A short synopsis of why: all war is caused by selflessness, as it demands the sacrifice of one's property, destroying the motive of production, and when there is no production, a state must have resources somehow, and once it's done looting its' citizens wealth, it must demand the sacrifice of the wealth of other nations, and invades its' neighbors.

Check the motivations behind every war in history; every state that started a war operated on the principle of selflessness: WWII by the joint invasion of communist Russia and socialist Germany. WWI by welfare statist Germany of the Kaiser, the crumbling Austro-Hungarian monarchy and the Russian monarchy. The Crusades by two totalitarian churches. Welfare statist Rome against republican Carthage, etc.

Selfish, i.e. capitalist nations don't start wars because they can only lose resources; they only fight in self-defense. The capitalist U.S. in WWII developed an enormous debt fighting and then paying to rebuild Europe; while the selfless states are the only ones that do gain, like communist USSR and again, Germany. Both these states in WWII took care to not destroy industrial areas in the areas they invaded so that they could transport the resources and rebuild them in their bankrupted home countries, since they had gone broke demanding complete sacrifice of their citizens, by nationalizing all businesses and removing the profit motive.

Though, as always in history books, capitalism and selfishness get the bum rap for the crimes committed by selflessness and socialism, because the dominating philosophy of the world is selflessness, i.e. socialism. It's a complete inversion of the facts.
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Postby Thoul » Thu Sep 20, '07, 1:32 am

I was speaking more of a single man, specifically Anakin/Vader. He falls from the grace of being a Jedi through his selfish desires for love, power, and recognition. These desires corrupt him to the Dark Side, which is the major focus of two or three of the movies.
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Postby Atolm » Thu Sep 20, '07, 3:18 am

I prefer Trek, even if I know little on it. Each episode I watch I do enjoy (I hardly watch TV.).
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Postby Silver_Surfer1 » Thu Sep 20, '07, 8:08 pm

I am a " Trekkie " fan also. :up: So, my answer is " Star Trek " too.

I do enjoy the Star Wars series very much, especially the first triology, however, it can't hold a candle to the cast, crew, and set of Star Trek (the original), or any of the follow-up Star Trek series or movies. :clap:
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Postby Silver_Surfer1 » Thu Sep 20, '07, 8:16 pm

Next Question:

If you could choose only one of these famous acting families to watch in movies, tv shows, etc. that they have starred in,

Which one would you choose.....The Fonda Family (Henry Fonda, Jane Fonda, Peter Fonda, Bridget Fonda, etc.) - or The Douglas Family (Kirk Douglas, Michael Douglas, Catherine Zeta Jones-Douglas) or - The Sheen Family (Martin Sheen, Charlie Sheen, Emilio Estevez) ?
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Postby The $ Avenger » Thu Sep 20, '07, 11:53 pm

Thoul wrote:I was speaking more of a single man, specifically Anakin/Vader. He falls from the grace of being a Jedi through his selfish desires for love, power, and recognition. These desires corrupt him to the Dark Side, which is the major focus of two or three of the movies.
Once again, that's the result of the principle of selflessness, in a man or in a nation, it's the same. The man that desires power over others is the most selfless one of all; he has no self-esteem and derives a false value from the attempted conquering of men's minds, which is impossible. That's selflessness. A selfish man would never attempt such a thing, because he is certain of the value of himself, and knows it is impossible to achieve any self-esteem through others.

For the new question, none at all. The only person in all those that I have any esteem for is Catherine Zeta-Jones for her comments on the greatness of America.
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Postby Thoul » Fri Sep 21, '07, 2:49 am

We must have very different definitions of selfless and selfish. To me, this has nothing do to with the person's view of their own self, which appears to be a crucial part of your definitions. In my view, a selfish man is one that wants to have things for himself, one who desires control and power, who will take for himself rather than give to others. A selfless man is the opposite; someone who would rather give than take.

I say that Anakin was selfish because he constantly seeks more power. This shows up the most in the last movie. He starts looking for more power, first to control death and later to control those around him, and for more recognition of his abilities when he wants to be named a "master Jedi." I'll agree that he may be lacking self-esteem, but in my eyes that is a separate issue.

I would also say that the conquering of men's minds is quite possible, though often difficult. Men can most definitely be controlled. That is why propaganda is so effective and sometimes dangerous.

On the new question, I'd say one of the latter two. I'm not a huge fan of any "acting family," but out of the movies I've seen, I believe I enjoyed their work more.
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Postby Silver_Surfer1 » Sat Sep 22, '07, 12:27 am

To answer the question about the various acting families, I like them all to some degree, however if I had to choose, I think I would take The Douglas Family. I always love to see Kirk Douglas in a movie (he's an author too now), and Catherine Zeta-Jones Douglas is great to watch. I like some of Michael's movies and some I don't, but he's a good actor nonetheless.

Regarding the above conversations about Darth Vader of Star Wars reminded me that some of the news today was about Hillary Clinton referring to Dick Cheney as " Darth Vader ". :eyebrow: Evidently, she is not the only person to do so. One news report showed different scenes of Cheney's pictures doctored up to make it look like he had on the Darth Vader black outfit. It was hilarious. I like Dick Cheney and bet he got a kick out of that. :wink:
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Postby The $ Avenger » Sat Sep 22, '07, 2:16 am

Thoul wrote:We must have very different definitions of selfless and selfish. To me, this has nothing do to with the person's view of their own self, which appears to be a crucial part of your definitions. In my view, a selfish man is one that wants to have things for himself, one who desires control and power, who will take for himself rather than give to others. A selfless man is the opposite; someone who would rather give than take.
Yes, I have a much different definition of selfishness than the majority of the world because the word's definition has been corrupted. I start out with the self in definitions because that's the only place to start; with your own mind, and look outward from there. If you don't start with your self; your own mind, then you're starting with the primacy on someone else's mind.

The root of the word selfish is self. A selfish man is a man that lives for himself, meaning, through himself, through his own mind. He doesn't try to live through anyone else. The man that tries to live through others, Anakin, disregards his self, and tries to achieve his value, power, through others. That is the root of the word selfless.

Selflessness, as an ethical practice is the demand of giving, as you stated, which is the expression of living through the minds of others, since you give to them, and depend on them to do the same for your own survival. Every lack of self-esteem is derived from selflessness, which is what I attribute to Anakin, and also the part about giving, even though he didn't appear to do that. Dictators don't give anything in the material realm, they demand everyone else's material sacrifice, which is the tenet of altruism which most don't want to acknowledge. Someone is receiving the sacrifices, which is what "power" over men actually is.

Here's an example of why selflessness is the incorrect ethics for man, and why I say Anakin is one of the most selfless entities in fiction: own must take care of their own needs first. Why? Volition. If a man tries to fulfill others' needs before his own, he requires that they do the same. The problem is that every man has the choice on every matter; there is no guarantee of what any man will do because of this power, so one must control what they can: their own mind.

Anakin, based on his final result, obviously lusts for power over men. This is traditionally thought be a result of selfishness. It's the exact opposite. If a man desires power, he is not placing himself above these men, he is placing himself below them. This is our conflict over whether a man's mind can be controlled. I say it can't, because of volition. No matter what, even in the case of slavery, the slave has power over his own mind. The slave chooses in his mind whether to accept his slavery or not. The proof is that at any moment, a slave can attempt to run for freedom, (or if imprisoned, never, in his mind, accepting this imprisonment,) and even die in the attempt of escape. The issue of importance is choice. At any moment, a citizen of a dictatorship can choose to reject the government: he either chooses to live under it, or he chooses that life is unacceptable under these conditions and resists.

Any leader's power relies entirely upon the choice of others, no matter how many guns he has, because he can't control volition. He's the most controlled person of all. Look at a politician today: they have no beliefs, they simply try and tell people what people want to hear, varying the message depending on the crowd. Such a man has ceded his beliefs, his mind, choosing to adopt the beliefs of others. He has ceded his mind to those he chooses to control. He has placed his survival selflessly in the hands of others.

I say that Anakin was selfish because he constantly seeks more power. This shows up the most in the last movie. He starts looking for more power, first to control death and later to control those around him, and for more recognition of his abilities when he wants to be named a "master Jedi." I'll agree that he may be lacking self-esteem, but in my eyes that is a separate issue.
Self-esteem is the belief of one's efficacy in the world. A lack of this is the belief that one has no efficacy. This lack must be filled through a desperate need of control in all situations. As this is the result of the practice of selflessness, this person then tries to gain a self via controlling other men's minds/death/laws of the universe etc. An example you gave, wanting recognition of his abilities, is his attempt to derive self-esteem through the minds of others; their opinions of him. He is stating his opinion of himself is meaningless, but that others' opinions are of value. This is abdication of living selflishly, though one's own mind.

As volition, or reality itself continually flouts such a wish, the person becomes more desperate. It's a never-ending cycle if one chooses to pursue it. As the self, i.e. one's feeling of efficacy in the world, becomes more and more damaged by this fruitless pursuit, his need for validation of his self increases. However, a man's mind has a built-in defense mechanism that screams louder at an increasing rate the more a man denies his self, this mechanism produces the feelings of anxiety, worry, fear, and anger. This is the point where the term selfish is typically used, where a man starts taking things from other people, desperately trying to quell these horrible feelings. Selfishness is misused here in that people think this man is taking these things for himself, which he is, but this ignores the method behind his actions. He is still trying to derive his self worth through others. He is taking from them. He is still putting the primacy of accomplishing his self esteem on the things other people have produced, not himself. This is another rejection of self.

I would also say that the conquering of men's minds is quite possible, though often difficult. Men can most definitely be controlled. That is why propaganda is so effective and sometimes dangerous.
Men can be controlled, if they choose to be. The onus is on every individual, not propaganda or any leader. If a dictator could control men's minds, this means these victims have no power of choice, they are determined/fated, so man's fate is controlled by some other being, while this chosen dictator does have the power of choice as he can or cannot lose control over these people.

That's my analysis of selfish and selfless behavior. As I've said on some other topics, many ideals are inverted today, because the prominent philosophy is selflessness, so the crimes of the selfless are blamed on the selfish.
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Postby Silver_Surfer1 » Sat Sep 22, '07, 6:48 pm

Okay, here's a new question: :)

If you could only choose one,

Which would you choose.....Spiderman or Captain America?
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