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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, '10, 10:22 pm 
In Phantasy Star 1, Motavia was the closest planet to the sun, with Palma being the second. When Phantasy Star II came around, they had switched - Palma was now closer to the sun than Motavia without any explanation.

The Compendium book released shortly after PSIV tried to explain this using an event called the Conjunction. It says that, about 450 years before PSII, the three planets came into alignment. Some kind of gravity problem caused Motavia and Palma to switch orbits, physically moving the planets with entire cities being destroyed in the process. The worldships from PSIII were also supposedly created during this time, probably to evacuate the planets on a temporary basis so everyone wouldn't die.

More recently, Sega of Japan's website, in a retrospective look at the series, offered a different explanation. It said that Motavia just had an elliptical orbit, causing it to occasionally pass between Palma's orbit and the star. There was no Conjunction under this explanation. The massive devastation that required evacuating in spaceships didn't happen.

So, my question to you is: which explanation do you prefer? Did the planets really trade places, involving worldships and all, or does Motavia just occasionally slide in front of Palma?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, '10, 10:58 pm 
I believe in Compendium explanation, because it explain spaceships from PS III and why Mother Brain became so important: it helped in short time fix environmental problems.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, '10, 12:50 am 
Ultimate AI wrote:I believe in Compendium explanation, because it explain spaceships from PS III and why Mother Brain became so important: it helped in short time fix environmental problems.

You don't really need to explain the spaceships in this manner, though. We can assume that they were built because the people of Palma somehow learned the Mother Brain network was going to destroy their planet and thus the people started building spaceships. How long did the Conjunction take, anyway? Did they really need such elaborate, climate controlled ships meant to sustain life for thousands of years for something that was so temporary? We also don't need the Conjunction to explain why Mother Brain was important. No matter what orbit Motavia is in, the network was needed to create artificial weather for the population to flourish. Palma didn't need Mother Brain like Motavia did, though, and that's probably why people weren't as willing to accept its total control of their planet.

Anyway, obviously I like the new explanation better. The Conjunction is a highly contrived bunch of garbage, in my opinion. Honestly, I've actually thought to myself why they didn't either a)admit that the orbit switch was an error in the development of the series or b)just give one of the planets an elliptical orbit and be done with the whole problem. It sounds like Sega finally went with the simpler explanation.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, '10, 2:33 am 
I take the compendium because it states that the conjunction could have been caused by the Earthmen.
All the sources on it and the Earthmen texts from the compendium state that it was a planned event and they used the destruction of the royal family to establish a democracy. Let me quote the stuff.
Quote:AW 822 - The Earthmen's spaceship stronghold, Noah, invades the Algol Solar System.
AW 843 - The "Conjunction", the alignment of the three planets, occurs. Due to gravitational interference, the orbits of Parma and Motabia are shifted, and cities are annihilated. Thanks to the Earthmen, the escape shuttle containing the remaining members of the ruling class is destroyed, and the Landeel bloodline appears to be wiped out.
AW 845 - Mother Brain, secretly controlled by the Earthmen at the heart of Noah, begns construction of its centrally controlled network on Parma, and reconstruction advances at an accelerated pace. Lutz awakens. He goes into hiding with his followers on Dezolis.
AW 868 - The reconstruction of Parma is completed. Control over the public welfare is given to Mother Brain. Because of this, an underground resistance movement is also born.
Aeroprism (I, IV [II as well])
A way was developed to counteract undetectable anti-gravity systems through magic power. Through the Aeroprism, systems using electro-magnetic waves can be rendered powerless, and the Air Castle, normally undetectable to the naked eye, can be seen.
Air Castle (I, IV)
A castle in the sky built for La Shiec in the year AW 341. It cannot usually be seen with the naked eye due to the magic power used to cloak the castle.
The Algol Solar System (I - IV)
A solar system composed of one star and four planets - Parma, Motabia, Dezolis, and Ryucross. The Great Light created it as the Great Seal used to seal away the Profound Darkness. Due to the "Conjunction", the close alignment of three planets in the system in AW 843, an extraordinary event occurred, and Parma and Motabia exchanged orbits. Parma was instantly and utterly annihilated in an explosion in AW 1284, when the artificial satellite Gaila fell.
Earthmen (II)
People from another star who invaded the Algol Solar System in AW 822. They planned to seize and overrun Algol with Noah's central computer, Mother Brain,
Motabia (I, II, IV)
The second planet of the Algol Star System. It was formerly an exclusively desert planet, but, in AW 852, a forestation and foliation plan was launched, and the environment was drastically changed from its original state.
Mother Brain (II)
The name of the central computer of the Earthmen's orbiting fortress. When the invading Earthmen slaughtered the entire royal family in a spaceship accident in AW 844, they manipulated public sentiment to abolish the monarchy and found a democratic republic. In the following years, construction began on the network on Parma, with Mother Brain at its core.
Spaceship Noah (II)
The star-going vessel carrying the refugees from the destroyed Earth. Through deft use of their radio jamming system, they infiltrated the Algol Solar System. The Earthmen then used Noah's central computer, Mother Brain, to seize control of Algol.

From what I gather in all this, the Earthmen infiltrated Algo, watched the people and arranged for an event to occur that wiped out most of the population. Then they slaughtered the royal family and then appear as heroes to rebuild Parma. They revitalize Parma and make it a better place.
Then they spread to Motavia rebuilding the planet as well.
Noah is a space fortress the size of a planet and for a visual reference, Dolza's fortress in Macross/Robotech can work. The Earthmen used Noah to cause a catastrophic event and then showed up as heroes.
The compendium proves the Earthmen were calculating and evil.

P.S. Tanith? I think I solved your problem and explained why the conjunction had to occur. It is all part of a sinister plan.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, '10, 4:21 am 
Rick wrote:P.S. Tanith? I think I solved your problem and explained why the conjunction had to occur. It is all part of a sinister plan.

Thanks, but I'm still firmly in the corner of Conjunction = contrived piece of crap. :wink: It didn't have to occur. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I have enjoyed the discussion, though. Good stuff!

Quote:The compendium proves the Earthmen were calculating and evil.

They were evil and calculating in the game. Don't need the compendium to prove it.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, '10, 4:25 am 
I'm more of a fan of the elliptical orbit theory, mostly because:

1. It's true with our own solar system- Neptune's orbit occasionally puts it further away from the sun than Pluto from time to time.

2. The physics make more sense- I'm admittedly not an astrophysicist, but I'm pretty sure planets can't just change orbits at random. "But wait, Chris!" you cry out. "Rick mentioned before that maybe the Earthmen did it from Noah!" Maybe, but let's just assume Palma's Earthlike before the Conjunction in every way: Same mass, same biomes, same size. You'd need a LOT of power and energy to move 5,973,600,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms several million kilometers, while preserving its momentum so nobody realizes something's going on!

3. It's simpler.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, '10, 4:56 am 
Quote:You'd need a LOT of power and energy to move 5,973,600,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms several million kilometers, while preserving its momentum so nobody realizes something's going on!

No one realized because mass people died? If you look at the other compendium entries, the Earthmen waste no time in moving in to restore things.

The Earthmen just so happen to conveniently DESTROY the space shuttle of the fleeing Royal family the same year?

2 years after the conjunction the Earthmen's ship Noah begins constructing Mother Brain's network.

In AW 844 they convince people to abolish the monarchy after they slaughtered the royal bloodline years before.

Now you can't tell me that the conjunction and the Earthmen moving so quickly 1 year and 2 years later was coincidence.

It all points to the Earthmen having something to do with it. The people of Palma also knew about the conjunction and tried to escape.

Everyone realized what happened but over the years, people forgot. Hell, no one was left alive to remember the orbits were different. Just like no one left alive remembers the Noah being destroyed or the worldships.

I doubt the Earthmen's actions during and after the conjunction were coincidental.

Just look at the Noah entry. They were able to infiltrate Algo undetected, hide themselves from a highly advanced society and Mother Brain was used to take over Algo.

Without the conjunction, the Earthmen couldn't have done it. Palma wouldn't have needed to be restored at all.

I rule out the elliptical theory because of the events. The actions of the Earthmen are too close to be coincidence.

P.S. We don't know if Parma is Earth size. Hell, we don't know if our physics even apply in the next galaxy. We're never moved a planet in space. We even see bigger objects in Gundam move with less energy required. It's space and there is no gravity. Without magnetic boots outside the shuttle, you float off. For all we know, Palma and Mota coulda been the size of Pluto or our Moon.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, '10, 5:01 am 
The Conjunction wasn't a part of the Phantasy Star story until after Phantasy Star II was released, though. Therefore, the earthmen are:

1)Already evil.
2)Already highly technologically advanced.
3)Able to take over the planets without orchestrating an event like the Conjunction.

PSII works without the Conjunction. Simply put, it's not needed to explain the events in between Phantasy Star and Phantasy Star II; it's just something Sega came up with to explain a simple game error in the orbits of Palma and Motavia. Apparently, Sega now agrees with this, since it's now using the elliptical orbit theory. Even they aren't using what's in the Compendium to expain the orbit switch. To me, the simpler explanation is usually best, which is certainly the case here.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, '10, 5:12 am 
True Tanith.. but the conjunction adds a whole nother depth to how evil the Earthmen were and their plans.

Sure, they coulda waited for the elliptical event and predicted it. I agree with that.

It's just that the Earthmen causing it makes Rolf and co slaughtering them even more rewarding.

The other explanation is easier but it takes so much away though!

Now the only thing left is to figure out the date problem.

PS1 - 342
ps2 - 1284 - 942 years?
ps3E - 2284 - 1000 years
Dev War - 2284 - 1000 years
Jap PS 3 - 3284 - 1000 years
PS IV - 2284 - 1000 years

Every other PS game follows 1000 years perfectly except PS 1. Does that mean the date of PS 1 is wrong or does it mean something happened in 284 and the Dark Force Lashiec summoned was a fluke?

The Compendium makes this even worse by saying that Lutz investigates the gate Lashiec opened in 349 and it'll fluctuate in 1000 years so he goes into sleep waiting for that.

So how the hell then does Lutz confuse the Earthmen Dark Force with the 1000 year one? If we ignore the date of PS 1, it all makes sense xd

Someone solve this!

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, '10, 5:24 am 
Eh, it's never been a big deal to me. I mean, 942 years is close enough. True, it doesn't fit with the rest of the nice, even time periods. Let's face it, Lutz screwed up a lot of things! He didn't really seem to know what was behind Mother Brain, only that he knew he had to send Rolf and his team to investigate Noah. I think he botched that one, really.

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