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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, '10, 2:51 am 
You should play Naflign's retranslation of PS 2 to get the details.

The English translation changed quite a bit.

In fact, compared to the original, the english is severely lacking.

Oh, if you think you can just take an original English PS 2 save state and rename it to work with Naflign's translation, well you think wrong.

When you import the save state, the whole game takes on the text of the original rom. You lose the new translation as a result.

I think this is the closest to a complete version of naflign's script.

http://www.phantasy-star.net/psii/ps2jtrans.html

If you read it and compare to english PS 2, you'll see drastic changes.

In fact, Catfangs and such were STUDIED as weapons. Let me quote:

Quote:NeiFirst- I am Neifirst. I was born 2 years ago when humans combined human cells and animal cells together using the bio-system. As a result, a power surge occurred, creating me. My creators attempted to kill me since I was a failed experiment. However, I escaped, stole DNA samples from the bio-system, and created the bio-monsters. I shall now seek revenge against you foolish humans who tore up nature, and created much grief for us. However, there was another Nei who attempted to stop me.

Nei- No, that's not true! I split from you because I couldn't stand what you did! Seeking vengeance on humans using monsters is just about as horrible as your creators! I can't let you do this!



Bingo. Neifirst was a failed experiment. She had a mind of her own. She stole the samples meaning she stole CATFANG samples. She stole HEADROT Samples. A burst of energy would evolve a Catfang probably.

Right there Nei awknowledges their creators as trying to make weapons to kill humans. Who do we know who wanted Algolians killed? The Earthmen!

This in turn backs up the the compendium statements. It also backs up the compendium stating that the Earthmen created the Biomonsters and Nei-first.

Now for even more proof Neitypes were studied in PS 2..

Quote:SEED: That's right. She is a product of a thousand years of improvement on genetic information from a prototype prior to the 'Great Collapse.' I have also given her a basic education. She will surely be a great help to you.


Prior to the Great Collapse could mean the time Nei-First was created and escaped or earlier.

It's called putting facts together. The only way SEED would even have genetic material on Nei, enough to clone her, was if she had been studied.

Japanese PS 2 and PS IV prove that Nei was studied extensively.

Not seeing this is just pure denial. Jap PS 2 and 4 back up the compendium stating Neitypes were studied.

You even have the Memorial Drama CD which doesn't break continuity.

GENE in the memorial drama CD carried on the work of the Earthmen.

if you want a REAL MIND SCREW, read what the original Earthmen say. That right there is proof a Dark Force made it to Earth. :)

If you want something else, Earthmen sent the power surge in PS 2 and caused the biomonsters and Zio in PS IV did the exact same thing. Could Zio have been a sleeping Earthman who woke up? We know Dark Force just loves the Earthmen :D He does have their armor. The Earthmen blew up Algo, Zio wanted to destroy Mota. The two planets that switched alignments..

He's another amusing fact. According to japanese PS 2, DARUM is the one who tried to kill Nei and Rolf rescued her :)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, '10, 3:33 am 
I think you're jumping to conclusions about Neifirst stealing specific biomonster samples. She says she stole DNA, but she's not more specific than that. It's possible she manipulated the DNA on her own--or with the help of Mother Brain/Earthmen--and biomonsters weren't being created before she started unleashing them onto Motavia.

Your angle of the Biosystems Lab conspiracy is really fascinating (So, the Biosystems Lab is supposed to be creating and maintaining acceptable life for Motavia, but they're really working on a complex clone army? Coooooooooooool! :wink: ), but it's not one I've heard of before or even felt like it was hinted at. Neifirst is a failed experiment, but again, there's nothing to suggest what kind of failed experiment she is. The only conclusion I've sort of worked out in my own mind here is that if the scientists were compliant with making an army of evil creatures like Neifirst, perhaps there wouldn't have been the "accident" that shut down Biosystems in the first place. As it stands, it was either a complete surprise to the scientists what happened after Neifirst was created, or they were not willing to follow Mother Brain's plans and were thus ambushed by Neifirst on her way out the door.

The problem with including the drama CD as canon is that it was made after the release of PSIV, but it's a story that takes place before the events of PSIV. Trying to use the CD to explain Rika's situation is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. PSIV's story already existed and was complete. If whoever worked on the CD decided to manipulate PSIV's story, it's a bit late for that, and that's why it's hard for me to include it to explain any kind of continuity. It's an interesting bit of PS work, but you can't manipulate the events of a story that already exists. It wasn't supposed to include any of the characters from PSIV in the first place, anyway, and I think it was supposed to take place at a different time, too. I could be wrong about the last part.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, '10, 3:51 am 
Tanith wrote:The problem with including the drama CD as canon is that it was made after the release of PSIV, but it's a story that takes place before the events of PSIV. Trying to use the CD to explain Rika's situation is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. PSIV's story already existed and was complete. If whoever worked on the CD decided to manipulate PSIV's story, it's a bit late for that, and that's why it's hard for me to include it to explain any kind of continuity. It's an interesting bit of PS work, but you can't manipulate the events of a story that already exists. It wasn't supposed to include any of the characters from PSIV in the first place, anyway, and I think it was supposed to take place at a different time, too. I could be wrong about the last part.


I'm kinda with Tanith on this.. At the beginning of the Drama CD it has Chaz talking with Rune about his past, which is not touched on during the game, storywise, or through the chat system other then the event after Alys' death. But in the CD the event takes place while they're travelling and Rika is involved as well. You could argue the same about Phantasy Star III, where theres pretty much no story.. But the characters have just one main goal, Rhys saving Maia, Ayn/Nial dealing with the events of Siren and Lune, and Adan/Gwyn, Sean, Crys and Aron dealing with the defeat of one evil, Dark Force. Basically the story can be told without the need of all the small crap involved, but its not changing anything that was not in the game in the first place.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, '10, 4:02 am 
The memorial drama cd really doesn't impact the plot of PS IV at all.

From my reading of it, it never made any changes to that happened in PS IV. It just shed some more light on neitypes and numans.

it also helped to kinda explain the OUT OF NOWHERE relationship between Chaz and Rika.

Nei's line is specific to the creators of Nei-First making monsters to kill humans. Earthmen wanted to kill humans. It's like GITS:SAC. The Tachikomas were taken out because they got personalities and began to think. Weapons of war should never have that capacity or be self aware. Nei-First obviously was self aware and had emotions she shouldn't have. Thus she was a failure.

Anyways, I also used this line to come to the conclusion that NEIFIRST didn't need to manipulate DNA.

Quote:Bio-system- The bio-system modifies all of the organisms on this planet. The entire galaxy's species' DNAs are preserved here.

Thanks to the bio-system, Motabia became civilized. But, the very same bio-system created the bio-monsters, which are destroying the planet. How ironic fate is...


Even if you take out the memorial drama cd, you still have SEED stating that Rika was from a sample studied BEFORE the great collapse. The only sample related to Rika would be NeiFirst or a Catfang type.

SEED in PS IV is the one who states Rika was made from a prototype studied before the great collapse. Everything else from the compendium and the Japanese PS 2 back it up.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, '10, 11:30 am 
You are jumping to conclusions all the time. Nowhere it says that there were prototypes in PS2. It was the power surge that created Neifirst by accident, so that means that they were not trying to do something like Neifirst, neither the biomonsters. Biomonsters were being made as a result of a failure (power overflow) in Biosystems during an experiment provoked by Mother Brain being possessed by Dark Force ("hacked" by humans, who made it). The existence of prototypes of war machines is your pure invention, sorry.

As for SEED, it says Rika is product of a prototype, and it is inventing an excuse for Rika being similar to Nei. Everybody knows there was no prototype in PS2, it was an accident during an experiment. As PS2 is prior to PS4, PS2 story shall be taken as canon, not PS4.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, '10, 6:19 pm 
Neifirst is the prototype Seed was talking about. How she was created doesn't matter to her status as a prototype. Once the research that created her was continued and a refined result was produced, Neifirst was officially a prototype of that branch of research.

Nei's line about Neifirst's creators, on the other hand, doesn't support the idea of those creators making weapons to kill humans. It's more likely a reference to Neifirst's creators trying to kill Neifirst. The humans were involved in the creation of Biomonsters, but only to the extent that they allowed Neifirst to have access to the systems to perform the actual experiments that made the biomonsters. Neifirst herself is the very first biomonster.

Just because PSIV expands on the story of the neitypes first presented in PSII doesn't mean PSIV is not canon. If that were the case, we could just as easily say PSII is not canon because it expands on the story Lutz first presented in PSI. There's nothing in PSI to indicate that Lutz could live until PSII. Does this mean PSII is not canon? No.

It is true that Rika is in the game because one of the developers wanted to reuse Nei. The same is true of Wren and Rune. That doesn't invalidate Rika's presence. Every character went through changes in development. Just look at "Latis," the early version of Rune.

Rick wrote:He's another amusing fact. According to japanese PS 2, DARUM is the one who tried to kill Nei and Rolf rescued her :)

That happens in Nei's text adventure game. Darum actually tries to kill Nei at least twice (once at the start and once at the end), but Rolf vs. Darum is the final battle in the game. It paints a very different picture of Darum, changing him from a desperate father to a totally corrupt evil man. He even murders one of the scientists that created Neifirst, IIRC.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, '10, 8:08 pm 
The problem is that nowhere in PSII it is said that Neifirst was a research of a prototype. It is exactly the opposite, they say her creation was the result of an accident during an experiment of mixing human and animal cells. Ok, if PSIV says Neifirst was a prototype, it is a deviation from PSII story, so that is why this (this episode, not the whole game) shouldn't be taken as canon, so it is more fit to think that Rika is something different from Nei/Neifirst, that they don't necessarily share the same characteristics.

On the other hand, Lutz being alive in PSII is not, because at the end of PSI, no one said anything about his future. For example, if PSII has said that no one has survived from Palma destruction, PSIII would be a deviation from PSII story. As it didn't say that, PSIII can be taken as canon.

But, for example, the spaceship that has fallen on Mota in PSIV can't be taken as canon because they say some of the spaceships landed on Mota or Dezo, while in PSIII, which precedes PSIV, it is said that only two spaceships survived. Between both contradictory versions, I always choose the first as canon.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, '10, 9:14 pm 
tilinelson2 wrote:Ok, if PSIV says Neifirst was a prototype, it is a deviation from PSII story, so that is why this (this episode, not the whole game) shouldn't be taken as canon...

But Neifirst is a prototype, even if she was an accident. She was the first of her species, which makes her a prototype. I don't think PSIV deviates from the events of PSII here.

As for the ships that escaped Palma, I always figured that there was just a gap in information sharing between what the dudes at New Mota knew and what was gathered by the ship that crashed into Motavia. Perhaps the sages at New Mota didn't know that some of the ships landed safely within the Algo system. Perhaps they only knew about the ships that left Algo completely, or they assumed that the ships that didn't make it out of Algo had all been destroyed.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, '10, 11:20 pm 
In PSII, we don't see anyone involved with the research that created Neifirst or continuing that research. That's why she is not called a prototype - there was no one to give her that label. She was still the result, however unexpected, of that research. Experiments don't always have an expected result; we conduct them to see what happens. In this case, Neifirst happened. (I don't believe that power surge was an accident at all, but rather intentional meddling by Mother Brain and the Earthmen. That's another matter, though.)

Since that research was later continued and eventually created Rika, that makes Neifirst a prototype of Rika. This isn't a deviation of the story, it's an expansion explaining what happened after PSII's story.

When it comes to the spaceships, there is not an actual contradiction if you look at it closely. PSIII does say that Dark Force destroyed all but two of the ships, but it doesn't say anything about where or how the ships were destroyed. It's very possible that Dark Force destroyed the ships that landed on Mota and Dezo, just not until after they had landed.

I don't trust the New Mota guys very much, anyway. PSIII and PSIV both contain many instances of people saying something they believe to be true, but that is not actually true. Given that the New Mota guys have apparently handed down the history of the ship orally for 1000 years, I expect the story has deviated from the truth somewhat with each new generation.

tilinelson2 wrote:On the other hand, Lutz being alive in PSII is not, because at the end of PSI, no one said anything about his future.


No one said anything about the future of the Neitype research in PSII, either. PSIV covers that, just as PSII covers Lutz's future.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, '10, 10:59 am 
Sorry, I'm a researcher and no way a prototype is a result of a flawed experiment. Prototype is a simplified/incomplete version of something being developed, to show some of its main properties. No, it doesn't apply to Neifirst in any way, since prototypes are an Engineering thing build on purpose, not the sub-product of a flawed chemical/biological experiment. For example, penicillin was not a prototype.

When wanting to take something of PSIV that contradicts PSIII as canon, it shows a bias in favor of PSIV story, which probably is your favorite PSIV. I have no problems with that, people choose what they think most fit for themselves. As for me, I can't stand the "rewriting" made in PSIV, it takes away all the magic of the series, in a blatant attempt to deal with the emotional side of past PS fans. But it was not needed. PSIV was a moderate success because of its large schedule and its improved technology, not because they mentioned Lassic or Myau (the return of the living dead, by the way). After all, they burned all the bridges that could leave an opening to a sequel in the end of the game, so the classic series was doomed to death in PSIV.


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