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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, '10, 5:44 pm 
From the definition of prototype:
Quote:1 : an original model on which something is patterned : archetype

Rika is patterned on Neifirst, the original. Neifirst is therefore a prototype of Rika.

There is nothing in PSIV that explicitly contradicts PSIII. PSIV left several openings for a sequel. The developers did consider making a PSV.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, '10, 8:07 pm 
tilinelson2 wrote:When wanting to take something of PSIV that contradicts PSIII as canon, it shows a bias in favor of PSIV story, which probably is your favorite PSIV.

PSII is my favorite, actually. I might have a perceived bias towards PSIV over PSIII, but I'll try to show you that my reasons are fairly logical (I hope. Here goes, anyway. :wink: ).

Here's my personal view on PSIII (and now I have thought way more than I ever thought I would about this series, and this has been a really interesting discussion, too, by the way. Thanks! :)):

PSIII was rushed to completion by a team with only one member from the previous PS teams. Because it was so hastily constructed, it's riddled with bugs, plot holes, repeated story lines, lazy animations and ugly palette swaps, and a nonexistent learning curve. To me, PSIII is a game of "could haves." It could have been really wonderful, even as a tangential story. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the game. I can't skip it when I'm playing through the series. Sari is my favorite PS character despite the half dozen lines she has in the entire game.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that by the time PSIV was in development, that team had to address the story problems that PSIII created. Honestly, I think they did the best they could. It's not perfect, but I don't think it's inconsistent with what happened previously in the series. I remember the first time I played it and thinking they did a good job of tying up all the loose ends (except maybe to explain what happened to Rolf and his crew, but I've grown to like that mystery).

Just my opinion, of course. My very long-winded opinion. :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, '10, 1:53 pm 
Thoul wrote:From the definition of prototype:
Quote:1 : an original model on which something is patterned : archetype

Rika is patterned on Neifirst, the original. Neifirst is therefore a prototype of Rika.

There is nothing in PSIV that explicitly contradicts PSIII. PSIV left several openings for a sequel. The developers did consider making a PSV.


Sorry, your definition of prototype is not good. It is like saying that human brain is a prototype for Artificial Intelligence. Since Neifirst was born out of an accident, she is not a prototype. Rika may have been inspired on Neifirst/Nei, but that doesn't mean Neifirst was a prototype for Rika.

Nothing in PSIV makes PSIII impossible, but just the spaceship thing contradicts PSIII. But I don't think PSIV left something open for a sequel. I've read this, but it was like a conjecture. They could screw up all the other instances of the series making something about Dark Force/Great Light again. It could work as a standalone game, but not in a series. It probably would be much worse than PSIV in continuity.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, '10, 2:31 pm 
Tanith wrote:
tilinelson2 wrote:When wanting to take something of PSIV that contradicts PSIII as canon, it shows a bias in favor of PSIV story, which probably is your favorite PSIV.

PSII is my favorite, actually. I might have a perceived bias towards PSIV over PSIII, but I'll try to show you that my reasons are fairly logical (I hope. Here goes, anyway. :wink: ).

Here's my personal view on PSIII (and now I have thought way more than I ever thought I would about this series, and this has been a really interesting discussion, too, by the way. Thanks! :)):

PSIII was rushed to completion by a team with only one member from the previous PS teams. Because it was so hastily constructed, it's riddled with bugs, plot holes, repeated story lines, lazy animations and ugly palette swaps, and a nonexistent learning curve. To me, PSIII is a game of "could haves." It could have been really wonderful, even as a tangential story. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the game. I can't skip it when I'm playing through the series. Sari is my favorite PS character despite the half dozen lines she has in the entire game.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that by the time PSIV was in development, that team had to address the story problems that PSIII created. Honestly, I think they did the best they could. It's not perfect, but I don't think it's inconsistent with what happened previously in the series. I remember the first time I played it and thinking they did a good job of tying up all the loose ends (except maybe to explain what happened to Rolf and his crew, but I've grown to like that mystery).

Just my opinion, of course. My very long-winded opinion. :wink:


About PSIII, it has serious problems of technology and I know that very well because I work with development of computer systems. I think PSIII was to be made for a, at least, 12 megabit cartridge, and be released in 1992, but they rushed it to 1991, in a 8 megabit cartridge to try to capitalize over the success of PSII and they shot they own foot. This change means that at least a third of the game was to be cut. Most probably they started cutting off the animations (the design of some monsters are really good, but the animations are ridiculous), cut some parts of the plot (caves that do not exist), some scenes (left only the 3rd generation ones) and some dialogue. That is why it has some messy aspects.

But concerning the tangential story, I think they did the right thing. They linked PSIII story with the series in a way they didn't affect the work of the original team if they wanted to continue the series later. Imagine a similar situation: Tolkien has written Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers. Then, his editor, trying to capitalize on the success of the series, calls Sidney Sheldon and obliges him to change the book he is currently writing to the next book of Lord of the Rings series. Would you prefer him to make "Wild Bachelors in Middle-Earth" a side-story to the saga or a book involving all the main characters of the series? The way they did it with PSIII gave liberties to the original team to continue the history from PSII. They didn't have to mention PSIII at all in PSIV, since it was not needed. The problem, for me, is that the only mention was contradicting PSIII. This is not a serious stain to PSIV, it is only part of the larger rewriting of the story in PSIV, which have more serious things, like the Nei/Rika thing.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, '10, 6:09 pm 
tilinelson2 wrote:Sorry, your definition of prototype is not good. It is like saying that human brain is a prototype for Artificial Intelligence.


Every definition of prototype I can find (around 15-20) includes a similar definition. This is simply what a prototype is.

If an AI is patterned after the way the human brain works, then yes, the human brain would be a prototype in that sense.

Quote:Since Neifirst was born out of an accident, she is not a prototype. Rika may have been inspired on Neifirst/Nei, but that doesn't mean Neifirst was a prototype for Rika.


Rika isn't just inspired on Neifirst in the story. She's a refinement of Neifirst, created from a refined version of the process that created Neifirst. That means Neifirst is a prototype that Rika was based on.

Quote:Nothing in PSIV makes PSIII impossible, but just the spaceship thing contradicts PSIII.


How does it contradict exactly? I don't see it. PSIII doesn't account for every moment of the spaceships and PSIV doesn't say what happened to the ships after landing. If the ships were not destroyed as PSIII says, where are they in PSIV? The Alisa III is a huge vessel. If there are six or seven ships like that on Motavia or Dezoris, they should stand out rather well.

Quote:But I don't think PSIV left something open for a sequel.


PSIV leaves a lot of unanswered questions that could be used for a sequel. It does wrap up a lot of things, as it was designed to do, but there are some things it does not address (like the DF on the Alisa III). There's plenty of room for the story to continue to be expanded.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, '10, 11:29 pm 
It isn't a contradiction at all..

Here is the exact text from PS IV:

Quote:~RIKA: According to the records... just before the explosion, some people were able to escape... This space ship was damaged and became trapped in orbit around Motavia. They floated around in space until all the humans aboard died. But the computer was able to sustain itself with its self-repairing mechanisms.
~RIKA: Wait... This is not the only ship that escaped from Parma! It seems that other similar ships were able to escape successfully. Most of them landed either in Motavia or Dezolis, but it looks like some of them went right out of the Algo solar system. I can't get an accurate number, but it looks like some tens of ships.
~CHAZ: ...So they're still continuing their flight... somewhere in the universe...


Now let's quote some Phantasy Star 3:

Quote:We are the keepers of our people's history. For 1,000
years we have kept the past alive. Listen well and
you will hear of our plight.
- We're the descendants of the people of Palm, a planet
that once circled the distant star Algo. Palm was
destroyed by an evil being that haunts us every 1,000
years, bringing death and ruin. This evil incarnate
is known as Dark Force!
- The people of Palm were thinkers and creators. They
knew of the plans made by the evil being. When the
vile Dark Force stirred 1,000 years ago, preparations
were made to escape from Palm.
- Our ancestors built a fleet of 400 spaceships. This
armada escaped the destruction of Palm and set off
into space to find a new homeland.
- Our ancestors thought they had at last escaped from
the clutches of the undying master of evil. But Dark
Force managed to slip aboard a ship. It destroyed all
but one of our sister ships before Orakio and Laya
trapped it on Alisa III. Now there are only two ships
left of our fleet: our ship, the Alisa III, and the
Neo Palm.


Nothing there contradicts PS IV at all. PS 3 speaks of over 400 ships that ESCAPE palma to wander the stars.

We do not know how many ships made it out of Algo and it is never stated in PS 3. It is never stated in PS 4 how m any either.

There is no contradiction in those statements at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, '10, 1:43 am 
Rick- Agreed, and the old dudes in New Mota only state that they built 400 spaceships, presumably all dome-type ships (as Rika also says "similar" ships). However, we know there's at least one space pirate, Tyler, at the time of Palma's annihilation. I think it's OK to assume that there were other Palmans who decided to become space outlaws after Mother Brain's space ban. Perhaps there were regular, non-domed ships that aided in evacuating Palma, and those people colonized Motavia, Dezolis and beyond as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, '10, 11:02 am 
Rick wrote:It isn't a contradiction at all..

Here is the exact text from PS IV:

Quote:~RIKA: According to the records... just before the explosion, some people were able to escape... This space ship was damaged and became trapped in orbit around Motavia. They floated around in space until all the humans aboard died. But the computer was able to sustain itself with its self-repairing mechanisms.
~RIKA: Wait... This is not the only ship that escaped from Parma! It seems that other similar ships were able to escape successfully. Most of them landed either in Motavia or Dezolis, but it looks like some of them went right out of the Algo solar system. I can't get an accurate number, but it looks like some tens of ships.
~CHAZ: ...So they're still continuing their flight... somewhere in the universe...


Now let's quote some Phantasy Star 3:

Quote:We are the keepers of our people's history. For 1,000
years we have kept the past alive. Listen well and
you will hear of our plight.
- We're the descendants of the people of Palm, a planet
that once circled the distant star Algo. Palm was
destroyed by an evil being that haunts us every 1,000
years, bringing death and ruin. This evil incarnate
is known as Dark Force!
- The people of Palm were thinkers and creators. They
knew of the plans made by the evil being. When the
vile Dark Force stirred 1,000 years ago, preparations
were made to escape from Palm.
- Our ancestors built a fleet of 400 spaceships. This
armada escaped the destruction of Palm and set off
into space to find a new homeland.
- Our ancestors thought they had at last escaped from
the clutches of the undying master of evil. But Dark
Force managed to slip aboard a ship. It destroyed all
but one of our sister ships before Orakio and Laya
trapped it on Alisa III. Now there are only two ships
left of our fleet: our ship, the Alisa III, and the
Neo Palm.


Nothing there contradicts PS IV at all. PS 3 speaks of over 400 ships that ESCAPE palma to wander the stars.

We do not know how many ships made it out of Algo and it is never stated in PS 3. It is never stated in PS 4 how m any either.

There is no contradiction in those statements at all.


If "Our ancestors built a fleet of 400 spaceships. This armada escaped the destruction of Palm and set off into space to find a new homeland." and "It destroyed all but one of our sister ships"

and

"This is not the only ship that escaped from Parma! It seems that other similar ships were able to escape successfully. Most of them landed either in Motavia or Dezolis, but it looks like some of them went right out of the Algo solar system."

is not a contradiction, contradictions doesn't exist.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, '10, 4:18 pm 
Hello,

Unfortunately, this discussion has begun to get out of hand in more than one instance. At this time, I feel it is necessary to end the discussion by locking the topic to prevent further disruption to the community.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that when discussing a subject you are passionate about, as we are all with Phantasy Star, it is very important to be respectful of your fellow members. If you disagree with someone's opinion and choose to state this and give your own opinion, do so respectfully. Remember that everyone is entitled to their opinion. There are many things in the Phantasy Star series that are open to interpretation. Everyone has the right to interpret them in a different manner and to express those interpretations without being attacked on a personal level.

Thanks,
Thoul
Fringes of Algo Administrator


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