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PostPosted: Wed May 12, '10, 12:10 am 
Rick wrote:He knew enough to keep Rolf from returning home. Didn't even let the guy Nei Sword to refresh himself! Then teleports his friends there to a suicide mission.


Lutz didn't know about that until the moment Rolf wanted to return, though. He was as surprised as everyone else, because he thought it was just Mother Brain and Dark Force up there.

Rick wrote:I'm just trying to figure out WHY the Earthmen DarkForce was so important to Lutz. It wasn't even the right one!


He didn't know that. Remember, we're looking at this from an outside perspective with information Lutz didn't have available. We know there can be more than one DF at a time. Lutz didn't. We know when the seal is weakest. Lutz didn't. We know DFs can be defeated without special weapons. Lutz didn't (even Alis used a laconian sword, believed to have special properties).

Lutz just saw that was a Dark Force there and a threat to Algo. That was enough for him.

Rick wrote:When we boil down to it, the only damn games that follow 1000 years correctly are PS 2, 3 and 4 o.o PS 1 just doesn't fit!


Like I said, that's Lashiec's fault. He summoned Dark Falz outside of the 1000 year cycle.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, '10, 4:02 am 
Thoul wrote:He didn't know that. Remember, we're looking at this from an outside perspective with information Lutz didn't have available. We know there can be more than one DF at a time. Lutz didn't. We know when the seal is weakest. Lutz didn't. We know DFs can be defeated without special weapons. Lutz didn't (even Alis used a laconian sword, believed to have special properties).


Not to jump in the middle of the debate here, but that's an awful lot that Lutz didn't know. He also didn't know...

...that he is ROLF'S FATHER!!!

:lol: I'm sorry. I couldn't help myself. :proposetoast:

Seriously, though... isn't it possible? As Thoul wrote:

"Three years after Lashiec's defeat, Lutz and Alis were travelling on a space ship that was sabotaged by terrorists loyal to Lashiec. The damaged ship took them to another solar system, where they remained for an undetermined amount of time. They later returned to Algo. After returning, Lutz introduced techniques to Algo. "

Like, whoa.

And looky at this: http://autumn-sacura.deviantart.com/art ... z-29329436

And this, too: http://archive.rpgclassics.com/fanart/p ... lee0am.jpg


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, '10, 5:59 pm 
We have no way of knowing if Lutz was in fact Rolf's father. I think that was something that wasn't really touched up on. I am certain Lutz fathered SOMEONE but I don't think it was Rolf specifically. On a side note, Lashiec summoning Dark Falz reminds of the Castlevania timeline where Dracula is supposed to rise every hundred years or so but it seems like after 10 + years, folks get impatient and summon him anyway....


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, '10, 9:27 pm 
Trying to glue a story rewritten by people who didn't bother respecting the past installments of the story is a futile exercise. There are many problems in using this approach:

The compendium is a marketing tool for PSIV. The "development staff" who wrote the timeline part is undetermined and though some of the key members from PSI and PSII were part of the staff of PSIV (though the writers are not the same and that explains a lot), who knows who wrote that? People who wrote the games and related content kept changing the story, how to determine who is right and who is wrong? For me, the Compendium is just lots of garbage.

All the translations are not official (Compendium, re-translations), made by fans. Why trust these translations since we don't know anything about who translated, apart that they had some knowledge in Japanese (how much?) and they were fans. Remember that traduttore, traditore (translator, traitor).

So I won't enter in the matter of the discussion, but I just want to point out that, apart from which selected lines from X and Y, the entire matter is a subjective one and there is no way of proving something is "right" or "wrong", specially when using untrusted sources, like Compendium and re-translations.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, '10, 10:14 pm 
tilinelson2 wrote:I just want to point out that, apart from which selected lines from X and Y, the entire matter is a subjective one and there is no way of proving something is "right" or "wrong", specially when using untrusted sources, like Compendium and re-translations.



Of course the entire matter is subjective. People are taking this waaaaaay too seriously.

As already mentioned, it is fun to speculate. This topic is not up for serious debate. Nobody -- and certainly not me -- is out to prove or disprove anything.

Do I really think Rolf is the son of Lutz? No, but I'm open to the possibility. The thought of it, as absurd as it may seem, is a result of the interesting and fascinating aspects within the series. There are loopholes and mysteries, so it's only expected that people will think about them and theorize. Not to mention, there are Phantasy Star website pages dedicated to these kind of theories (e.g., Lutz and Noah isn't the same person, Ryan from PSIII is also a Dragon Knight, etc.) and the purpose of this thread isn't any different. Proving anything is not the intention.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, '10, 11:02 pm 
tilinelson2 wrote:All the translations are not official (Compendium, re-translations), made by fans. Why trust these translations since we don't know anything about who translated, apart that they had some knowledge in Japanese (how much?) and they were fans. Remember that traduttore, traditore (translator, traitor).


The same argument can be applied to official translations. We don't know anything about the people who translated PSI, PSII, PSIII, or PSIV for Sega. Who can say how much knowledge they had of Japanese? Their translations become even more suspect if you consider all the things they deliberately changed, like items and characters. They may have even made mistakes, like referring to Noah as "her."

We have to put a reasonable amount of trust into the official translations or we simply would not have anything related to Phantasy Star at all. Even then, we all have to understand that the translations are not necessarily perfect and different people at Sega have given us different translations of the same words.

If we're going to do that, why not extend the same level of trust to fan translations? These people spend a great deal of time translating this text for all of us and get nothing in return for it. If a portion of a translation is pointed out to be inaccurate, then certainly we should take that into account in some way. That doesn't mean we should automatically assume every translation is untrustworthy.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, '10, 3:11 am 
Rune_Walsh wrote:There are loopholes and mysteries, so it's only expected that people will think about them and theorize. Not to mention, there are Phantasy Star website pages dedicated to these kind of theories (e.g., Lutz and Noah isn't the same person, Ryan from PSIII is also a Dragon Knight, etc.) and the purpose of this thread isn't any different. Proving anything is not the intention.

Speaking of theories, my crazy theory is that Kyra is ROLF'S descendant*, so if Lutz is Rolf's ancestor, that makes Lutz one of Kyra's ancestors, too!

INSANITY! :lol:

Which leads me to my other crazy theory that Rolf survived the Noah ordeal. I think the Nei sword finally rescued Rolf's party once he activated enough Megid to blast the ship to pieces (sort of like Mieu using Grantz in LaShute in PSIII).


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, '10, 5:06 am 
Question: Where does this "wrong Dark Force" supposition come from? PSIII makes mention of Ohario and Aina fighting Dark Force on Palma "2000 years ago" and being defeated, causing the people to realize they needed to leave Palma (and therefore they began constructing the worldships). How is this contrary to PSII's appearance of Dark Force at Noah?

And I agree with Thoul's argument that La Shiec opening his gate is what caused the deviation from the 1000 year rule if you're determined to make the Compendium 100% canon. However, anyone that's dealt with these kinds of books can tell you that oftentimes they make mistakes, especially when trying to flesh out the material. I do trust the translation though, least of reasons being that I bought my copy years ago from the same 'Aaron' that Rebecca Capowski mentions in the introduction of the compendium translation. Plus, what I've translated by myself of the book matches her translation (with some stuff I'd word slightly different, but the content is the same).

-Corey


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, '10, 5:30 am 
Quote:Question: Where does this "wrong Dark Force" supposition come from? PSIII makes mention of Ohario and Aina fighting Dark Force on Palma "2000 years ago" and being defeated, causing the people to realize they needed to leave Palma


From Japanese ps 3.

The Devastation war happened 1000 years AFTER PS 2. PHantasy Star 2 takes place 1000 years AFTER PS IV.

This is the timeline in Jap ps 3.

1284 - Ohario and Anna are defeated by Dark Force and escape on world ships. Dark Force escapes with them.
2284 - Dark Force awakens, destroys ships then causes the Devastation War
3284 - Phantasy Star 3

It is presumed that since Dark Force was TRAPPED by Orakio's sword in the temple that he fed off fo Rulakir keeping him alive for 1000 years. The same way Dark Force fed on Lashiec and Zio. Jap Ps 3 has the Sages of Lashute saying the same thing. Dark Force is in 2 parts, will and body just like Grahf/Lacan in xenogears, etc.

The wrong Dark Force supposition is because the Dark Force on the NOAH isn't the millenium one that escapes from the seal. That Dark Force came from the Earthmen and Earth.

It seems that Ohario and Aina fight the seal breach Dark Force on Parma.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, '10, 6:31 am 
Tanith wrote:Speaking of theories, my crazy theory is that Kyra is ROLF'S descendant*, so if Lutz is Rolf's ancestor, that makes Lutz one of Kyra's ancestors, too!

INSANITY! :lol:



WHAT IF Lutz is the ancestor of ALL espers!? Don't most of them have blue hair? :lol: :rofl: :bang:

Methinks Lutz has been a busy man... :p


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