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PostPosted: Tue May 11, '10, 3:54 am 
PSP wrote:If Rick's post is a joke, it's a little over the top but amusing.

If it's serious...wow. Just...wow.

Most of it is taken from the Compendium, I think. There's some ridiculous, contrived back story in the Compendium about a second Dark Force attacking Palma at the same time as Rolf's quest. Supposedly it's the Dark Force that eventually escaped into the domed ships of PSIII.

I disagree that Rolf fought the "wrong" Dark Force, as someone had to fight him, not to mention do something about Mother Brain and the Earthmen, but that's just my personal opinion. Lutz still has some 'splaining to do about Rolf and Party getting caught off-guard and cornered by the Earthmen aboard Noah. That part of Rick's post I definitely agree with.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, '10, 4:14 am 
Quote:I think. There's some ridiculous, contrived back story in the Compendium about a second Dark Force attacking Palma at the same time as Rolf's quest. Supposedly it's the Dark Force that eventually escaped into the domed ships of PSIII.


Actually it's also in japanese ps 3. A Dark Force was destroying Parma at the same time. Ohario and Aina failed to defeat it and it escaped with them.

It's been proven in the post where someone retranslated the japanese new mota scene.

Lutz just grew senile and couldn't remember the right date in the end. He purposely had Rolf ambushed on Noah.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, '10, 4:33 am 
In Lutz's defense, he had no reason to believe there would be two Dark Forces at one time. It hadn't happened before that. Even Rune, a thousand years after the fact, didn't know it was possible. Apparently Lutz never even knew about the one on Palma. He just assumed the one on Noah would have the the Dark Force.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, '10, 4:44 am 
Rick wrote:He purposely had Rolf ambushed on Noah.

Rick, not to pick apart the way you word things, but could you somehow indicate that posts like this are conjecture on you part? (Something like "I believe Lutz purposely let the Earthmen ambush Rolf.") You post very definitely, which is fine if that's what you believe, but then others come along like PSP and aren't sure if it's fact or if you're joking.

And I agree, Thoul. Even if Lutz knew there were two Dark Forces, Rolf can't be in two places at the same time. All the information about Ohario and Aina and the second Dark Force came out after PSII was released, anyway.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, '10, 5:26 am 
Quote:He just assumed the one on Noah would have the the Dark Force.


So a ship 500 years later has the Dark Force he is watching for?

Yes but if we use the compendium..

Quote:AW 341 - La Shiec learns the secret of the Algol Solar System's genesis. Forming a space-time gate, he comes into contact with the sealed-away spirit-life form. As a result, he summons the projected body of the Profound Darkness, Dark Force, and becomes its loyal servant. That same year, a reign of terror begins.

AW 349 - Lutz, continuing to research Dark Force, finds that the gate that La Shiec opened cannot be perfectly resealed, and realizes that the resultant fluctuations will therefore once again reach their peak after 1,000 years. He assembles his fellow Espers that are watching the gate and enters into cold sleep.

AW 845 - Mother Brain, secretly controlled by the Earthmen at the heart of Noah, begins construction of its centrally controlled network on Parma, and reconstruction advances at an accelerated pace. Lutz awakens. He goes into hiding with his followers on Dezolis.

Esper Mansion (II, IV)
The building in which Lutz gathered his fellow Espers after the fall of the Landeel dynasty. The assembled comrades created the Nei series of weapons and Elsydeon to guide the heroes foretold to eventually appear and prepare them for Dark Force's rebirth

From Jap PS 2 and Lutz speech:

Rutsu
Hello Yushisu. I am Rutsu, the last Esper of Algor. I can see you seem to be surprised that I know your name. I have already seen you once, when you were 10 years old. You were on a space trip with your parents, when that accident occurred. Both of your parents died in that accident, including you. However, I brought you back to life with the light of awakening. I had awakened because I heard Arisa's scream (note: Richard translated this as "I have awakened," but I changed it to "I had awakened"). Yes, you are the last descendant of Arisa, who fought and protected Algor nearly 1000 years ago. You have seen the nightmare. Yes, that nightmare in which the beautiful symbol of Algol, Arisa, is fighting the force of darkness, Daruku Farusu. Daruku Farusu once attempted to destroy Algol. But, Daruku Farusu failed. However, that did not eliminate all of the forces of darkness attempting to destroy Algol. Now we face those forces of darkness, Yushisu. You must fight them, and stop them. Collect the weapons of Nei in order to vanquish them for eternity. I shall give you this Aeroprism. With this you can see what you were not able to see before. I shall find out if you are the truly the "chosen one" if you can find the weapons of Nei. Only then I shall tell you the forces of darkness' plot, and guide you to them to stop them.

Talk to Lutz with weapons of Nei
You are indeed the descendant of Arisa, Yushisu. You are worthy to inherit the light's power and the memories of darkness. 1000 years ago, Alyssa and her team's battle to bring peace back in Algol was successful. People understood the true meaning of happiness, where they did not ask for more than what their loved ones gave them, and gave more than what their loved ones asked for. However, after the appearance of the Mother Brain, Algol began to change. The Mother Brain created more than what we needed, and caused everyone to forget what was really important. People began to fight for what Mother Brain created, and forgot the kindly philosophy of Arisa. People are now even beginning to believe they will not be able to live without the Mother Brain. I feel there is a trap of the devil hiding behind Mother Brain, a mastermind who made the Algolians weak and feeble. I feel it! It is a powerful force attempting to destroy Algol again. I don't know who is or why someone would do this, but we must stop them before it is too late. This box contains the Nei sword. Take this with you, and then I shall teleport you to the domain of the darkness.


From that, I gather Lashiec prematurely summoned Dark Falz before he was to escape and became his servant. After his defeat, Lutz couldn't close the seal breach and went into sleep to watch for it to open again.

So sometime during 349 and 1274 he abandoned his watching of the La Shiec breach to save the last descendant of his dead friend?

If we use the compendium, It seems Lutz just got confused by the Earthmen appearing and forgot his goal.

Without the compendium, It seems Lutz had the right Dark Falz.. But then he has this quote.

Quote:I feel it! It is a powerful force attempting to destroy Algol again. I don't know who is or why someone would do this, but we must stop them before it is too late.


It seems Lutz pulls a Rune PS IV moment there. Lutz finally admits he has no idea why someone is trying to destroy Algo even though he knows Dark Force (and what Dark Force tries to do) o.o. He also knows about Noah so.. that line is rather.. odd?

The compendium makes Lutz out to confuse himself and adding PS 3's new mota script LOL

Well if you use Lutz words in jap ps 2, Lutz seems to be very confused! Also, the great Lutz and his followers who can make the weapons of nei and revive the dead can't deal with the Earthmen?

Hell, if Chaz can beat 3 Dark Forces without Nei weapons, why was Rolf needed?


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, '10, 7:47 am 
Tanith wrote:Rick, not to pick apart the way you word things, but could you somehow indicate that posts like this are conjecture on you part? (Something like "I believe Lutz purposely let the Earthmen ambush Rolf.") You post very definitely, which is fine if that's what you believe, but then others come along like PSP and aren't sure if it's fact or if you're joking.


The way I see it is that evidence is provided to back up reasoning, which albeit in a hilarious way supports my thesis, so the end result for me regardless is that I am very pleased. ;)

Seriously -- I'm wanting more info on Noah traveling with Alis. Can anyone provide a translation of what Thoul mentions? Rick -- do you know anything about this that you can add?

Rick wrote:Lutz being Rolf's ancestor's father isn't that far fetched.


Exactly. And this goes without saying, but I also agree Lutz messed up in PS2. That said, if PS2 Lutz is scatterbrained -- which isn't so far fetched to state -- then the premise that he "isn't" a relative of Rolf because he didn't say he is, is not a cogent argument standing.

Gosh. This is so much fun. :D


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, '10, 8:08 pm 
Rick wrote:So sometime during 349 and 1274 he abandoned his watching of the La Shiec breach to save the last descendant of his dead friend?


First, we don't know that Lutz was even watching the breach in the first place. He did research on it, but that doesn't mean he continued to monitor the breach after he concluded it could not be sealed. There would not have been much point to continuing to watching it. He knew a Dark Force was coming, but his experience with Dark Falz suggested it would work through others for a long time before physically manifesting itself. Watching the breach would have been looking in the wrong direction. Lutz needed to be aware of what was happening in the rest of Algo, so he could notice when things starting going bad in the society.

Second, Lutz left Palma to go into hiding in a region not controlled by Mother Brain. Essentially, to save himself and fellow Espers. According to the Compendium, the last of Alis' bloodline was already dead by then, so Lutz definitely didn't stop anything for them.

Side note: that's one reason I think Rolf is Alis' son. Alis' bloodline has to be reintroduced somehow after the royal family is wiped out. If Alis returns to Algo and has children again, that could explain the contradiction of her line ending and Rolf later being part of her line.

Back on topic: I think going into hiding on Dezoris was definitely a mistake on Lutz's part, but I can also see his reasoning. Mother Brain's influence was making people violent and lazy. They were forgetting the past and fighting among each other. Lutz knew knowledge of magic and the seal needed to be preserved. He did not know everything about the seal or Dark Force, but even what he did know would have been lost if he had not taken steps to keep himself and that knowledge alive.

As for Lutz saving Rolf from the space accident, let's not forget the full context. The accident was used as an excuse to ban space travel entirely, to cut off the planets from each other. It probably wasn't an accident at all, but rather a plot by Mother Brain. If Lutz was watching Mother Brain and trying to identify the forces behind her, it shouldn't be surprising that he might intervene in a plot or two, especially if he somehow sensed a member of Alis' supposedly dead family involved.

On the time issue... well, from Le Roof in PSIV we know that the seal was fluctuating at certain intervals ever since it was first formed, long before Lassic came along. When Lassic summoned Dark Falz, he did so between intervals and caused the seal to be weaker at the next fluctuation. That's why less than 1000 years pass between PSI and PSII: because Lassic wasn't working on the 1000 year schedule.

The Compendium confuses this issue and uses the 1000 year concept in two different ways. In the timeline section, it suggests Lassic started things and the next DF would be 1000 years after Lassic's summoning. In several other places, it supports Le Roof's version of the 1000 year cycle starting long before Lassic.

Rick wrote:It seems Lutz pulls a Rune PS IV moment there. Lutz finally admits he has no idea why someone is trying to destroy Algo even though he knows Dark Force (and what Dark Force tries to do) o.o. He also knows about Noah so.. that line is rather.. odd?


Lutz meant that he didn't know who had created Mother Brain. He knew about Noah and that Mother Brain and Dark Force would be there, but he didn't know about the Earthmen or their motivations. After all, Dark Falz and Lassic didn't actually try to obliterate a planet like the Earthmen had managed to do. Lassic was trying to rule, not completely destroy.

Rick wrote:Hell, if Chaz can beat 3 Dark Forces without Nei weapons, why was Rolf needed?


That's a good question, but let's save that for another topic. ;)

Rune_Walsh wrote:That said, if PS2 Lutz is scatterbrained -- which isn't so far fetched to state -- then the premise that he "isn't" a relative of Rolf because he didn't say he is, is not a cogent argument standing.


Granted, the absence of the statement is not solid proof they aren't related. But yeah, it's all fun speculation. :)

I just really think that Lutz would have mentioned it. If they are related, then Lutz would be Rolf's only living blood relative. That's a pretty big thing to leave out.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, '10, 10:46 pm 
Quote:He did not know everything about the seal or Dark Force, but even what he did know would have been lost if he had not taken steps to keep himself and that knowledge alive.

AW 349 - Lutz, continuing to research Dark Force, finds that the gate that La Shiec opened cannot be perfectly resealed, and realizes that the resultant fluctuations will therefore once again reach their peak after 1,000 years.
.


True, but the compendium has Lashiec learning of Algo's genesis and then Lutz researching the gate which would give the same info Lashiec got.

People also are watching the gate..

Quote:# Elsydeon (IV)
The sword that sleeps in the Cavern of the Sacred Sword [in the Canyon of the Crescent Moon - sorry, in-joke] in the Esper Mansion's Inner Sanctum. It is said to be the only thing that can seal away the Profound Darkness.
# Esper Mansion (II, IV)
The building in which Lutz gathered his fellow Espers after the fall of the Landeel dynasty. The assembled comrades created the Nei series of weapons and Elsydeon to guide the heroes foretold to eventually appear and prepare them for Dark Force's rebirth


Now Thoul said..

Quote:He did not know everything about the seal or Dark Force,


He knew enough to make Elsydeon to REPAIR the seal and the Nei weapons to defeat Dark Falz.

But it still doesn't answer HOW Lutz confused the Dark Force the Earthmen had from the 1000 year one.

I'm still awed that the almight Lutz and espers, who can create Nei weapons and a weapon to repair a seal can't deal with the Earthmen?

Maybe Lutz wanted revenge for being kicked out of his planet and the royal family dying :D

I think we have a way Lutz coulda confused himself! It involves the.. Air castle/aeroprism.

Quote:# Aeroprism (I, IV [II as well])
A way was developed to counteract undetectable anti-gravity systems through magic power. Through the Aeroprism, systems using electro-magnetic waves can be rendered powerless, and the Air Castle, normally undetectable to the naked eye, can be seen.
# Air Castle (I, IV)
A castle in the sky built for La Shiec in the year AW 341. It cannot usually be seen with the naked eye due to the magic power used to cloak the castle.
Moreover, the black magic that created the castle in infused in the monsters inside its walls. When La Shiec is resurrected in AW 2284, he is half-zombified and needs the magic power inside the castle to survive.

Spaceship Noah (II)
The star-going vessel carrying the refugees from the destroyed Earth. Through deft use of their radio jamming system, they infiltrated the Algol Solar System.


Now we know you need the Aero prism to see the Air Castle, Rykros and Noah.

Maybe the Spaceship Noah used the same cloaking tech the Air Castle did and Lutz thought that was Dark Force escaping from the seal and that explains Lutz being confused.

Mm.. Radio jamming uses the elecromagnetic spectrum if I recall.. Aeroprism.. Lashiec's castle follows the same procedure..

Also on a lighter note from Jap Ps 2:

Quote:Narrator-Suddenly, reinforcements sent by Rutsu's teleportation arrived inside Noah's cockpit.

Captain-You fools! It will be all over, Algor will soon become destroyed! What you are doing is no use!
Yushisu- Cease you spawn of the devil!
Narrator-Suddenly, Yushisu and his team began to attack hundreds and thousands of humans inside the ship.


Rolf and Co threw the first punch!


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, '10, 11:06 pm 
Rick wrote:True, but the compendium has Lashiec learning of Algo's genesis and then Lutz researching the gate which would give the same info Lashiec got.


Maybe, but we can't be sure of that. Lutz may have looked at different sources when doing his research. He may know more or less than Lashiec. Lashiec himself might not have known everything.

Quote:He knew enough to make Elsydeon to REPAIR the seal and the Nei weapons to defeat Dark Falz.


I said he didn't know everything. He learned a lot about the subject, but that doesn't make him omniscient.

It is very doubtful that Elsydeon could fully repair the seal. That would make the sword stronger than the Great Light, who wasn't able to make a totally effective seal. We also don't know for certain when Elsydeon was created. It might not have been made until after PSII, when Lutz would have learned more about DF from Rolf's encounter. If Elsydeon was around in PSII, there would have been no need for a Neisword.

Quote:But it still doesn't answer HOW Lutz confused the Dark Force the Earthmen had from the 1000 year one.


It's simple: Lutz had no way to know when the 1000 year mark would happen. Once he knew there was a Dark Force around, he might have simply expected that the 1000 years was up.

Quote:I'm still awed that the almight Lutz and espers, who can create Nei weapons and a weapon to repair a seal can't deal with the Earthmen?


If Lutz was that powerful, he wouldn't be in hiding from Mother Brain. He is still just one man, regardless of how much magic he can call up. Plus, he didn't even know about the Earthmen. He may have known the ship Noah was DF's location, but he didn't know there were thousands of people on the ship.

Quote:Maybe the Spaceship Noah used the same cloaking tech the Air Castle did and Lutz thought that was Dark Force escaping from the seal and that explains Lutz being confused.


That makes sense.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, '10, 11:32 pm 
Quote:He may have known the ship Noah was DF's location, but he didn't know there were thousands of people on the ship


He knew enough to keep Rolf from returning home. Didn't even let the guy Nei Sword to refresh himself! Then teleports his friends there to a suicide mission.

Quote:Now go on Yushisu! Go to the ones who are looking at us from high above the sky in outer space!


Why is the Nei Sword even necessary?

Could it be that the Dark Force Lashiec summoned is different from the seal one?

Alis didn't have the Nei Sword and she beat DF, Chaz beat 3 of them.

Yet we have Nei weapons needed in PS 3 and 2..

Also, another oddity.. according to jap ps2 and compendium, the eclipse happens at the 1000 year mark. It happened in 1281 o.o

Quote:Eclipse Torch (I, IV [mentioned in II as well])
Once every thousand years, Ryucross draws near to and completely eclipses Motabia. On that day, magic energy from the sleeping spirits of Algol and Ryucross is emitted towards Dezolis, where it is gathered in and filtered through the Aeroprism, irradiating Laconia with a pale green light.

Ryucross (IV)
The fourth planet of the Algol Solar System. It is said to make only one revolution every 1,000 years, and it has a long, elliptical orbit. One cannot find it without the aforementioned Aeroprism, and no person alive knows where it is. When the seal on the Profound Darkness weakens every 1,000 years, it draws near the other three planets, its duty to warn of what's to come

From Jap Ps 2..

Them accidents happen cause' them Parmans didn't do them rituals on the day the sun blacked out.


Well Rykros didn't exist till PS IV so Lutz not using it is a stretch but if he knew about Algo..

I'm just trying to figure out WHY the Earthmen DarkForce was so important to Lutz. It wasn't even the right one!

When we boil down to it, the only damn games that follow 1000 years correctly are PS 2, 3 and 4 o.o PS 1 just doesn't fit!


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