Current Events - News Of The Day

Chat about things happening around the world.

Postby The $ Avenger » Fri Aug 3, '07, 11:58 pm

Atolm wrote:As for the environment, Gore's quote has sense. It is a ugly quote, but trees are here for a reason other than to make things nice and shady. :D
You can plant another tree, you can't replace an individual mind.
Atolm wrote:It is possible to have great technology and still be nice to the environment, but expensive too.
Yes, it's absolutely possible. The environmentalists just want to force it on everyone through laws rather than allow businesses to correct any problems themselves. Environmentalism believes that industry would destroy the world if there wasn't a new law preventing them from doing so, and uses such an absurd argument as an excuse to expand governmental power. It's not a coincidence that Al Gore is an environmentalist and his wife argued for and influenced legislation on censorship.
Thoul wrote:I agree that the media does have a tendency to focus on horrible events more than good news, but it's not like they're making all this stuff up. There are terrible tragedies somewhere in the world almost everyday.
There are wonderful stories everyday somewhere in the world too, but you don't see them dominating the news. The mere selection to show as many tragedies as possible depicts a view that man's life on Earth is doomed to suffering; that a successful life is impossible. If that were true, we'd never have made it out of a cave.

Thoul wrote:In a perfect world, all technology would be environmentally friendly... but that will never happen in our world. People are too reliant on it and wouldn't know what to do without it. :dizzy:
As they shouldn't have to know what to do without it! Industry is necessary to human survival.

The only way technology will become environmentally friendly is if the government backs off. Enforced minimum regulations destroy any incentive to exceed them. Freedom necessitates competition, which drives the level quality ever higher, rather than stopping on a certain level of improvement. When free, anyone that stops improving quality gets bypassed, and bankrupted.
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Postby Thoul » Sat Aug 4, '07, 5:38 am

There are wonderful stories everyday somewhere in the world too, but you don't see them dominating the news.


True, but I don't think that's part of any intention to exclude news just because it's good or uplifting. The media focuses on negative stories because that is what most people will watch. When there's a train wreck, people stop and stare. When someone does something good, people pat them on the back, go on about their own business, and forget it ever happened.

The media is a business and they're in business to make money. They focus on what people will tune in to see so they can get more advertising and make more money.

The mere selection to show as many tragedies as possible depicts a view that man's life on Earth is doomed to suffering; that a successful life is impossible.


I have to disagree; A successful life is often one that overcomes suffering or tragedy. The presence of those things doesn't make success impossible, just more rewarding when it is achieved.

As they shouldn't have to know what to do without it! Industry is necessary to human survival.


My point didn't come across very well. If there were friendly replacements for all tech made available tomorrow, people still wouldn't use it because they're attached to the unfriendly stuff. Take, for example, people with classic cars they've restored to near original condition. If they could swap out their smog spewing engines for clean burning engines, most wouldn't. The experience wouldn't be the same for them.

The only way technology will become environmentally friendly is if the government backs off. Enforced minimum regulations destroy any incentive to exceed them. Freedom necessitates competition, which drives the level quality ever higher, rather than stopping on a certain level of improvement. When free, anyone that stops improving quality gets bypassed, and bankrupted.


That doesn't make any sense to me at all. The government enforcing minimum regs doesn't prevent anyone from going beyond that if they choose to do so. AFAIK, the reason those regs were set in place is that businesses weren't doing anything at all to be environmentally friendly before hand. I don't see how that has anything to do with quality.

Businesses aren't just about quality - they're also about cost. You can have the best quality product in the world, but if it costs too much to make or sell, you're still going bankrupt. I'm not saying that "it costs too much to switch to environment friendly tech" is a good argument, but it is one that a lot of businesses use.
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Postby Silver_Surfer1 » Sat Aug 4, '07, 4:24 pm

Whoa, this thread is getting heavy! :yes: Some great discussion and opinions on this last subject, or subjects. :clap: Very interesting ones too.

Just one comment regarding Gore. He's not a special favorite of mine any longer. In my opinion there is more "Do as I say, not as I do" coming from him regarding the environmental issues and other issues as well. Although, he is not alone in this as there are others that seem to "speak the talk" but do not seem to "walk the walk", if you get my drift. Just my opinion.

Also I agree that there are zillions of stories on the bad things going on all over the world, but everyday I also see stories of good things - uplifting things - encouraging things - which I take time to notice and remember. They are there. They are special. For instance, with this recent tragedy of The Bridge collapse and some losing their lives, etc. There were also stories of people coming to the aid of their fellow man, woman, or child, who didn't know them at all, and at possible risk to their own lives. They saw a need for help and they answered the call. They are true heroes in my opinion. :salute:
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Postby Tsunami » Sat Aug 4, '07, 9:19 pm

The Komrade wrote:Al Gore wrote in his book, Earth in the Balance, that the choice between saving a human life or a tree was a difficult choice. Draw your own conclusions from a quote of that kind.

I just had to comment on Gore. If he really thinks that it's hard to choose between a human life and that of a plant, then I don't have any respect for the tree hugger. No matter how much he's all for a "good cause" and "saving the world's environment", that's some pretty warped idealism. :sweat:
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Postby The $ Avenger » Sun Aug 5, '07, 1:32 am

Tsunami, I'm glad to hear someone is horrified to the degree I am about equating a human consciousness to a tree.

Thoul wrote:The media focuses on negative stories because that is what most people will watch.
Thus intentionally excluding the good stories. I agree they are giving most of the masses what they want to see in order to make more money, and therefore intentionally selecting the horrible stories. I'm not just condemning the media; I'm condemning a culture that gets pleasure out of such stories.

Before moving on to the other points, (which are going to take a minor essay,) I'd like to focus directly on the tragedy of the bridge, and why it happened.

If people don't ever want to see something like this again, they should take action against what caused it; the government. The city government repeatedly ignored warning of the instability of such a hazard. The bridge, and the road was public property, a fallacious concept. As long as the government claims ownership to such things as public thoroughfares, such tragedies will be repeated.

Why? Look at where the blame is directed. People will sue the "city" for this negligence. But there is no such entity as the "city". And, the city has no money of its own; it only has what it extorts in taxation from its citizens. Therefore, the blame has been passed from the city to the citizens of the city! The victims' families will be suing their neighbors, everyone else in their state, and themselves!

Such is the fallacy of "public property". The government won't be punished for this horrible transgression; it will raise taxes to compensate, and bleed it out of the other citizens. What incentive will the government have to not repeat an act of this kind when its negligence goes unpunished? None. Tragedies of this sort will continue until people demand the privatization of all roads, and other forms of "public property". If the road was owned by a business, they would be the only ones punished for their negligence, as they would have to pay up in a lawsuit. Quality can only exist when the concept of accountability has not been invalidated.

Moving on...
I have to disagree; A successful life is often one that overcomes suffering or tragedy. The presence of those things doesn't make success impossible, just more rewarding when it is achieved.
Absolutely. Success can come through difficulty and be a rewarding struggle. The point is that by only presenting these tragedies and ignoring the successes in life, the implication is that the only successful life can be achieved through suffering and pain, and that a successful life without suffering is impossible. When the good is ignored, it is made to be the unusual, and suffering is to be the natural state of mankind. As for the good that comes out of tragedies: heroism does not require running into burning buildings to save children, though this is heroism. Heroism is an intransigent devotion to a moral code, and is faced by everyone, everyday. The only difference is in the scope of the danger involved.

My point didn't come across very well. If there were friendly replacements for all tech made available tomorrow, people still wouldn't use it because they're attached to the unfriendly stuff. Take, for example, people with classic cars they've restored to near original condition. If they could swap out their smog spewing engines for clean burning engines, most wouldn't. The experience wouldn't be the same for them.
Sure, I nor any other intelligent consumer will buy a cleaner automobile until it is cheaper than what is currently on the market. There's no conclusive evidence that man has any significantly damaging effect on our environment. Because of this, capitalistic practices will rule; continuing to seek out the best product for the lowest price. If evidence existed that the environment is significantly influence by ethanol vehicles, then companies will necessarily devote their production processes to cleaner cars, and the price will drop accordingly, as there are more production facilities for these new vehicles. If the companies don't adapt, then they can be sued for damaging someone else's property, i.e. polluting the air on your property, but not until there is actual proof, not a movement that simultaneously declares an impending ice age and global warming.

That doesn't make any sense to me at all. The government enforcing minimum regs doesn't prevent anyone from going beyond that if they choose to do so. AFAIK, the reason those regs were set in place is that businesses weren't doing anything at all to be environmentally friendly before hand. I don't see how that has anything to do with quality.

Businesses aren't just about quality - they're also about cost. You can have the best quality product in the world, but if it costs too much to make or sell, you're still going bankrupt. I'm not saying that "it costs too much to switch to environment friendly tech" is a good argument, but it is one that a lot of businesses use.
Government regulations intend to protect consumers by setting standards that businesses must measure up to, with the idea that this will guarantee quality products from every business. This is terribly false, and encourages terrible products to be created.

Government regulations set a standard whereby anyone meeting it has all of that particular product labeled as automatically "good". This grants an advantage to unscrupulous businesses that they could never have in a free market, and therefore destroying the difference between an honorable business and a dishonorable one, and therefore also destroying the concept of quality.

Inspections to make sure a business reaches minimum standards are inherently flawed. Inspectors aren't omniscient; they can't possibly check everything to make sure it reaches their "good" standard. The great majority of products don't get inspected, but are automatically branded good. That invites every dishonest goon to get into business, make some minimal products, and then proceed to fleece the public by selling dangerous goods that are sold under the endorsement of the government as good products, and hoping they won't get caught by the unsuspecting consumers that believe the product is good because the government decreed it to be so. This floods the market with a variation along a spectrum between horrible goods, and wonderful goods, with the distinction blurred in regard to the consumer. All the consumer knows is that all these products are "good" because the government said so, so there isn't any reason to try a product that costs a little more that could be much better, since they're all just "good".

On a free market, there is a much better inspector, for he is omniscient, because the inspector is every consumer. Rotten businesses can't survive for long cranking out low-quality products because they have to answer to everyone, not just one person who can be bribed to give an artificial stamp of approval. A company cannot bribe every consumer; it would go out of business. One of the greatest qualities a company can have is a respected brand-name, which takes years to establish as a quality name through a diligent pursuit toward creating better and better products. One slip-up and that name is tarnished, and that company doesn't just suffer from a lawsuit over a dangerous product; their profits are negatively effected for years.

Thus, a free market protects itself, a government disarms consumers against criminals. Compare the amount of product recalls of today to that of when the economy was freer in the 19th century. The data speaks for itself.

Regardless, such regulations were entirely unnecessary. If a company was dumping sewage into drinking water, then governmental regulations were still unnecessary. The individual's right to property allows for any person that could prove their water was tainted, could sue that company. That's the safeguard to pollution. Regulations are arbitrarily assigned by bureaucrats, not by scientists, and are not the most efficient business processes. This hampers a business from finding the optimal process, because they are the experts in producing their own product, not some governmental official, and thus damages their profitability, and the entire economy.

And all this says nothing of the heinously evil violation of individual rights that the government is committing. There is no distinction between a business and an individual; a business is merely a group of individuals. When a government decides they can dictate how productive a business is, they are claiming ownership of how productive the people they are supposed to serve are. If you own the productivity of man, you own man. That's a giant step toward dictatorship.

Business are about both price and quality. The product that is the best quality for the lowest price wins out. This necessarily encourages businesses to continually better their products and ability to produce in order to keep up with competitors. Despite the government's best(worst?) efforts, this principle still nearly always wins out. The exceptions to this rule today are all because of the socialist measures in our economy. A free economy has never completely existed, but that's a topic so broad that it exceeds the length of this one.
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Postby Atolm » Sun Aug 5, '07, 2:26 am

Totally understand that, as I said, the quote is ugly, but I have met a lot of individual minds who do not make good use of it and just waste and waste and waste.

Also, I would like to replant those trees, but there is nothing but concrete there now. It use to be a beautiful place.

Perhaps I have become so neutral in the concerns of the environment/politics/blahblah that all I can do is watch and see people argue instead of act.


As for the negative stuff we see on tv, I think to myself, "We are all Romans at heart." I say this jokingly though...
Some may secretly want to see another Colosseum, but for now, negative stuff on the tv will do. 0_0
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Postby Silver_Surfer1 » Sun Aug 5, '07, 3:27 am

The Komrade wrote: Heroism is an intransigent devotion to a moral code, and is faced by everyone, everyday. The only difference is in the scope of the danger involved.



I might also add that one major difference is that some people may and do choose to act upon a situation or event (sometimes without even giving it a second thought) , thus we see and find heroism, while others may simply choose to do nothing for whatever reason faced with the same situation. I think there is more to it than only the scope of the danger involved, etc.
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Postby The $ Avenger » Mon Aug 6, '07, 12:24 am

Secret_Surfer wrote:I might also add that one major difference is that some people may and do choose to act upon a situation or event (sometimes without even giving it a second thought) , thus we see and find heroism, while others may simply choose to do nothing for whatever reason faced with the same situation. I think there is more to it than only the scope of the danger involved, etc.
Yes, that's true. It comes down to how much a person has embraced a moral code, and which moral code a person believes in. If they believe 100% in self-sacrifice, then that person will act to save anyone, acquaintance or stranger, no matter the danger to one's self. If the person has embraced individualism 100%, then they will only act to save someone if the endangered person is of great value or if they can save a stranger without losing their own life. Variations in the commitment between these two codes show the spectrum of action and inaction in a disaster.

Atolm wrote:Perhaps I have become so neutral in the concerns of the environment/politics/blahblah that all I can do is watch and see people argue instead of act.
Very true, because most no longer know how to act. It's up to the people that do know to take the lead.

Atolm wrote:As for the negative stuff we see on tv, I think to myself, "We are all Romans at heart." I say this jokingly though...
Some may secretly want to see another Colosseum, but for now, negative stuff on the tv will do. 0_0
That's a very astute observation about degradation of society. That's exactly where this country is headed if people don't change their philosophy.
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Postby Silver_Surfer1 » Tue Aug 7, '07, 1:14 am

Well, it appears there has been another mining accident - this time in Utah - where several miners are trapped underground as last I heard. Sending good thoughts and prayers that they will reach them and bring them all safely home.
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Postby Silver_Surfer1 » Thu Aug 9, '07, 3:45 am

They still haven't reached those miners yet and reports say that it could be as long as a week before they get to them. Unbelievable! :bang:

In other news today:

The Space Shuttle Endeavor has launched into space today.


On board was a lady astronaut who is a teacher and who was the back-up for astronaut /teacher Christine Mccullah (sp?) who was on board the space shuttle that exploded several years ago and all perished. Let's hope this space mission goes well, expecially with all the problems these missions seem to have lately.
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